Burgundian Inheritance needs one small, and probably easy to implement, change. (2024)

Zilas0053

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  • Oct 10, 2022
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  • #1

Say you're playing France, and Austria gets the Burgundian Inheritance. You would have to take 90+ AE to take it, presuming Burgundy hasn't lost any land. This does make sense ofcourse as you're getting the Lowlands as well, which is a very developed region in the HRE. 90+ AE is fair imo. I am not suggesting AE changes.

The current situation just isn't historical and it could be fixed if France could take land in the peace deal.

From my understanding by reading on Wikipedia. In game terms, what happened historically is that the Emperor (Austria) would get the Inheritance and France would DOW for it, as would happen in game aswell. This war ended with a compromise where France would gain all non-HRE land and the Emperor would keep the HRE land, but this is impossible to do in-game as France can't take any land without also taking the PU. Which again costs 90+ AE.

Conclusion and TLDR: What I am suggesting is that France should be able to take land in the peace deal, without needing to take the Union. This way you could effectively split Burgundy with Austria, as happened historically and not take 90+ AE for getting any Burgundian land.

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  • Oct 10, 2022
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  • #2

Well it also needs to be less railroaded to happen. In a world where there's nothing to stop you from getting rid of useless heirs like Enrique de Trastemara you shouldn't be blocked from dumping Charles.

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  • #3

brifbates said:

Well it also needs to be less railroaded to happen. In a world where there's nothing to stop you from getting rid of useless heirs like Enrique de Trastemara you shouldn't be blocked from dumping Charles.

While I agree with this, that's a significantly bigger rewrite than the minor tweak OP is asking for, since so much of Burgundy's mission tree sort of relies on the Inheritance happening.

As for OP, I agree with you, too. Perhaps a "Burgundian Succession War" CB should be used where France gets reduced AE (though not quite Reconquest levels) for taking Burgundian land outside the HRE, and has the option to take the Union as well, for its default, instant HRE coalition AE value.

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  • Oct 10, 2022
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What we really should do is get rid of the silly restriction against taking land in an inheritance war. In the historical "Wars of the Whatever Succession", very few of them ended with a new dynasty actually being installed by force but nearly all of them ended with substantial amounts of land changing hands. The AE mechanic actually provides a pretty good explanation for why this was- taking control of a whole country at once would have messed up the balance of power, but the war provided a good excuse to expand to a more limited and acceptable extent.

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  • Oct 10, 2022
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Nostalgium said:

While I agree with this, that's a significantly bigger rewrite than the minor tweak OP is asking for, since so much of Burgundy's mission tree sort of relies on the Inheritance happening.

As for OP, I agree with you, too. Perhaps a "Burgundian Succession War" CB should be used where France gets reduced AE (though not quite Reconquest levels) for taking Burgundian land outside the HRE, and has the option to take the Union as well, for its default, instant HRE coalition AE value.

I actually considered something like this as well, I just couldn't quite put it into words. : )

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  • #6

newtlord said:

What we really should do is get rid of the silly restriction against taking land in an inheritance war. In the historical "Wars of the Whatever Succession", very few of them ended with a new dynasty actually being installed by force but nearly all of them ended with substantial amounts of land changing hands. The AE mechanic actually provides a pretty good explanation for why this was- taking control of a whole country at once would have messed up the balance of power, but the war provided a good excuse to expand to a more limited and acceptable extent.

I agree and don't on this issue. Sure, succession wars looked very different in history, but to my knowledge, it was also much rarer to just go on brazen land grabs like we do in EU4. Couple years of espionage, and suddenly all of Europe is more OK with me just taking half of Milan as Venice than they would otherwise be? I can live with the abstraction that actual succession wars are fought over Unions, since shall we call them "naked" wars of conquest are more common in EU4 than is my impression of history.

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  • #7

Nostalgium said:

Couple years of espionage, and suddenly all of Europe is more OK with me just taking half of Milan as Venice than they would otherwise be?

This is an interesting choice of example, because Venice did "just take" substantial land in Italy, and it was usually proceeded by elaborate politicking that was quite reminiscent of EUIV's claim fabrication system.

While the "fabricate a claim on a specific province" is an abstraction, a period of time spent building up an excuse for a coming war is a phenomenon that has been known since antiquity (and of which examples in recent history are far from difficult to find).

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  • Oct 10, 2022
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  • #8

newtlord said:

This is an interesting choice of example, because Venice did "just take" substantial land in Italy, and it was usually proceeded by elaborate politicking that was quite reminiscent of EUIV's claim fabrication system.

While the "fabricate a claim on a specific province" is an abstraction, a period of time spent building up an excuse for a coming war is a phenomenon that has been known since antiquity (and of which examples in recent history are far from difficult to find).

A fair point, actually, re. Venice. But when it comes to fabricating claims, it's kind of in the name of the CB. Saxony fabricating a claim on [insert random HRE province here] can easily be interpreted as, in fact, one of those smaller-scale succession wars which ended in land being exchanged, but not actually subjugating a whole other nation. The idea was more that I'm OK with Union CBs in general being about the union proper. The "smaller scale" resolutions are best represented as Conquest wars within the framework of EU4.

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Travis_Bickle

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  • Oct 10, 2022
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  • #9

I think that whilst the Burgundian inheritance mechanics have been consistently improved since 1.30, it's impossible to have a fair and historical inheritance when one country can inherit the whole of Burgundy and if anyone contests it, it's a defensive war.

This is made worse by the fact that Austria's HRE mechanics and ability to PU Hungary and Bohemia early make them far too powerful for France to contend with. This also has the end result that Austria will vital interest France's land and keep attacking them until they no longer exist.

In the real war of the Burgundian succession, France annexed the in-game states of West Burgundy, East Burgundy and everything up to Calais. They later returned East Burgundy to the HRE.

The real way to fix this is that whoever gets the inheritance should be forced to heavily favour making concessions. Either Austria concedes the French culture provinces to France, or France releases the lowlands.

Likewise, the succession war should be an offensive war if you refuse to make concessions..

I'm glad Paradox have continued to improve the inheritance since 1.30. 1.30 was an improvement on before, then they fixed Charles getting loads of strong claim heirs, then they fixed the bug which made you lose France as a PU if you PU'd them then got the inheritance, now they've actually made Charles a general which is a very welcome change. But this is a crucial next step. No one country should inherit so much land for free.

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BoomKidneyShot

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  • Oct 11, 2022
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  • #10

Maybe there could be an event where, if France is fighting the HRE Emperor or an HRE member (this wouldn't make sense for a non-HRE member) and is winning the war, where you can offer a peace where France gets the non-HRE land, and the HRE Emperor/member keeps the Union with Burgundy. That might work. It shouldn't be guaranteed to happen, but as an option it might work.

If it's a non-HRE member as the overlord, this wouldn't make sense, they'd have no reason to care about the HRE boundaries.

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necro84

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  • Oct 11, 2022
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  • #11

Maybe there could be special CB that allows 2 options
1) form PU
2) take only provinces that aren't part of the HRE - something similar to imperial ban CB but with different provinces allowed

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subzero12479

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  • #12

Zilas0053 said:

You would have to take 90+ AE to take it, presuming Burgundy hasn't lost any land. This does make sense ofcourse as you're getting the Lowlands as well, which is a very developed region in the HRE.

When forcing a country into a PU, their PUs don't matter for the AE calculation, even though you get them for free. So if Burgundy still has the dutch minors or not doesn't matter, only how much development they directly own.

Travis_Bickle

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  • #13

subzero12479 said:

When forcing a country into a PU, their PUs don't matter for the AE calculation, even though you get them for free. So if Burgundy still has the dutch minors or not doesn't matter, only how much development they directly own.

It is still a lot of AE.

I saw France press the union claim and win, when a weak Austria that was being destroyed by the Ottomans (FYI the Ottomans were in Bavaria come 1510). The resulting coalition was brutal.

If you consider that France gets cores on that land, I think the PU should offer less AE.

This being said, I'm still in favour of the inheritance being split between France/Austria as it seems more historically accurate and fair.

currylambchop

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  • #14

It’s because of the unpopular 1.33 change that doesn’t let you take land in PU wars unless you force the PU.

Zilas0053

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  • Burgundian Inheritance needs one small, and probably easy to implement, change. (543)
  • Burgundian Inheritance needs one small, and probably easy to implement, change. (544)
  • Burgundian Inheritance needs one small, and probably easy to implement, change. (545)
  • Burgundian Inheritance needs one small, and probably easy to implement, change. (546)
  • Oct 11, 2022
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  • #15

subzero12479 said:

When forcing a country into a PU, their PUs don't matter for the AE calculation, even though you get them for free. So if Burgundy still has the dutch minors or not doesn't matter, only how much development they directly own.

Fancy seeing you here : )
When the inheritance fires Burgundy inherits all of their PUs, but in all other cases this is true.

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Burgundian Inheritance needs one small, and probably easy to implement, change. (2024)
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